Curse

Giga_Gaia · Nov 19, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I'll try to keep the flaming down to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Pauli

I hate to break it to you, but some builds are very very very easy to operate. Builds that are shared or published and can be easily obtained. If its that easy, it requires a lot of skill, right? Wrong. Furthermore, We know both sides bring, occasionally, bad players which means that its very easy to overcome their attempts to harm you. I also know, from experience, that its true. Its very easy to overcome many attempts to harm me, even from quite a lot of players (when I'm playing a monk).

IMO it's not about operating a build that takes skill, it's about keeping npc's and yourself alive while under fire from the turtles, gank squad, AND other luxon players that takes skill. It takes awareness to know, for example, when to put up that guardian ahead of time to protect yourself from the sin about to shadowstep to you. Also, if you're protecting yourself from others attempting to harm you, you're not protecting that vital npc that would easily die in seconds if you weren't paying attention. This also forces you to make decisions. Will you take that diversion so you can keep someone up longer? Will you let it die to save yourself? I believe that is what requires skill to successfully monk; because as bad as some people are, they at least have enough sense to attack the monk when they see him (as you also agree with me on that one).

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Another fail in your post, is that fact that you tell me what I'm doing, and then said I'm not good enough. I hate to break it to you, but whenever I bring a necromancer or a mesmer, I always bring strips and/or skill denial. If I dont, I just go to the other gate so I wouldnt spend time. Please ask me what I'm doing instead of trying to tell me what I'm doing. It'll prevent more fails in your post. Could I expect anyone to act like me? No, I cant. Its nothing more than the basics of designing a map for casuals. Dont force builds which are only prefered by rare people.

No, I said that in general, Luxons don't know what they're doing. They don't bring enchant removals, waste their time killing stuff that don't need to be killed, bring stupid builds, etc. I'm sure that you are one of those good luxon players, but that doesn't mean that the general populace in FA are the same.

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I hate to break it to you (yes, again), but skill is the way you use your build and casuals dont only lack skill in many cases, but also bring prefered builds. That's the basics of designing a map for casuals. You shouldnt force them to bring builds that are rarely prefered (rare is the key word here). Its about builds people have fun playing. Its about preferences.

What makes you think that Kurzicks won't also fail to bring these preferred builds? Like I said before, if you're going to talk about a format for casuals, then you also must consider both sides. But like I keep saying, Kurzicks are more prepared thus bring more effective builds than Luxons do. In any PvP format, it all comes down to winning, and using what's most effective for achieving that goal. Players bringing whatever they want and expecting to win are being too naive. If they wanna have fun, so be it. But just don't expect to steamroll other, more prepared players who are there to win, like they would in PvE.

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Solo builds with a lot of ways to survive and/or run away are popular because many casuals dont like it when they die. Such builds can hold the turtle in one place,even though they can hold the turtle without being hurt at all (which is one of the major issues here). Skill denial builds, which are extremely useful against monks (among others), are very vulnerable and dont have the satisfaction of killing, also because they cant coordinate the lockdown with damage from other people. Therefore, such builds are unpopular.

Not everything has to be about killing. It's more effective to shut down that monk than trying to kill him in many cases, because a dead monk can come back like you said, but a shut down monk is practically useless. You don't need to coordinate damage from other people once the monk can't do anything. Everything will die on their own, and rather quickly, if the monk can't do his job.

Also, I'll throw this back at you for the casual players don't wanna die part:

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Please ask me what I'm doing instead of trying to tell me what I'm doing. It'll prevent more fails in your post. Could I expect anyone to act like me? No, I cant.

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Of the two of us, you're the one who complained about the players while I never did so (try to quote me, just give it a shot). That said, you just called yourself a forum bitch. I didnt call you that, you called yourself.

And yet the basis of your argument is that monks are healing gate npc's and that players are getting the turtles stuck. How is that not complaining about the players? Because certainly in your view as far as I understand, is that they are abusing the mechanics of the map, even though both sides can abuse them. I AM agreeing with you that turtles shouldn't be blocked so easily especially at the teleporters. But until it gets fixed, you must also expect to see them and provide counters. Still, the players are what makes a difference in the arena, and NOT the npc's; but you seem convinced that you MUST have the turtles in all their godliness or your chances of winning are slim to none. Even though others have already pointed out the fact that good teams do NOT need the turtles. At all. Yes I've won on Lux side with the turtle still stuck in-between the inner and outer gates. Again this goes back to player skill.

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Common knowledge? Says who? You? Did A-Net approve it with any kind of statistics on their part? If not, why should I talk your word for it? Furthermore, any attempt to prove that one side is inherently more skilled than the other side (when its an RvR discussion) has always failed, like your (attempt for an) arguement here.

So you really think that the many kurzick players there waiting for up to 20 minutes just to get in, do so because they think they're gonna lose? JQ is like a kurzick faction farm fest even with the long wait times. If Luxons are winning so much, why aren't there more players on that side? Also see below.

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You must know, by now, that forums are far from being a good way to represent the game's population. Its a well known fact that's been proved time and again and again and again etc. That said, you cant base your arguement on the forums. A-Net's statistics are the only way to know.

I also said chatting with players/guildies/alliance in-game. The Wiki is also full of many others pointing out the faults in Luxon players' builds.

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Which is why I said I'm against it and it should be fixed.

I never said its not an issue. Quite the opposite, in fact. I specifically said its an issue, but not one that belongs to Fort Aspenwood alone. I dont know what can be done about it. If someone comes up with a good suggestion, I'm all for it.

Fair enough.

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I'm against body blocking the Juggernaut just to prevent it from doing its job. However, I remember its damage being very easy to once it got to the turtle. The turtle didnt have such a major problem doing its job even with a Juggernaut on it. That said, its an issue but not nearly as serious as the turtle's. Why? Because the turtle's impact, once its not stuck far from the battle, is much more serious.

Juggs can flip over the turtle. Once flipped over, the turtle is not only prevented from shooting (and it gets interrupted in one flip), but it also takes massive damage from almost anything.

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When fighting Shiro you have the chance to organise a team and choose your team mates and builds properly. People also tend to be much more coordinated when working with premade teams. The case we're discussing here is far from being the one you mentioned (Shiro) and therefore the analogy is irrelevant.

I was talking about the skill bars that you would be bringing in when you know what you will be going up against (healers and tankers in this case), NOT about organized teams because again, this applies to both sides.

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Again, its not frustration. I'm having fun, but I'd have more fun if things were a little different. Therefore I initially made two simple suggestions in a constructive way. Gladly, most of your post was mature and constructive and I believe you'll understand me better now. I think I understand your side here.

Other than that, the turtles were given to the Luxon side to be an advantage, and not a small one too. This advantage has the greatest impact when inside the fort, but its extremely easy to prevent them from going inside. You wouldnt be surprised when we ask for the advantage we were designed to have, do you? Just like I'm not surprised if you dont like it when the last NPC is lured out (and like I said, it shouldnt happen).

Okay, fair enough.

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Its quite the same story with the monks and the gate NPCs (which is coupled with the wast way in which the gates can be fixed), which we discussed quite a lot already.

Well like I said, everything can be countered. Running amber takes at least 2 people to do it successfully, so that leaves only 6 out of 8 people defending. So there is a drawback. Not only that, if there is no monk, the gates can be broken so fast that it would take more than 2 runners to keep them up. You do the math.

Anyway, if anything I do admire your dedication to this subject and arguing against so many people at once.

upier · Nov 19, 2009, 08:20 AM // 08:20